COLD OPEN
Eric Becker
Kim Seymour is a global people leader with nearly 30 years of scaling teams across some of the world’s most influential companies.
Kim Seymour
You’ve got to be able to put yourself in the place of the stakeholders, What do they care about? How do they care about it?
Eric Becker
Her career spans leadership roles at General Electric, American Express, Weight Watchers, Etsy, and now at one of the most talked about brands anywhere, Skims, where she serves as their first ever Chief People Officer. Kim has helped drive transformation across world-class teams, through rapid growth and disruption.
Kim Seymour
Things are always going to evolve. Things are always going to change. If you are not a learner, then you’re stuck.
Eric Becker
Let’s talk about AI.
Kim Seymour
This is the Wild West right now, so you can either get on board the bus or the bus is gonna run you over.
SHOW OPEN
Eric Becker
Welcome to “The Long Game Podcast.” I’m Eric Becker.
I’m an author, an entrepreneur, and I’m founder and chairman of Cresset, a family office that we built to serve founders, multi-gen business owners, and families. For all the entrepreneurs and aspiring entrepreneurs, for leaders and CEOs, “The Long Game” is for you. It’s the practices. It’s the leadership skills. It’s the culture that can stand the test of time.
I’m Eric Becker and this is “The Long Game.”
INTRO
Eric Becker
Kim is joining us today from her Skims office early in Los Angeles, and I’m thrilled to have her here for the long game. Welcome, Kim Seymour.
Kim Seymour
Thanks, Eric.
Eric Becker
Thanks for being here. Your career spans legacy companies like General Electric and American Express to these game changers like Etsy and Skims. What did you learn in the larger, more institutional type businesses like GE and American Express that helps you in your role in working with these innovators?
Kim Seymour
Oh for sure, sure, there’s a discipline in their approach to things like talent management that is rooted in process improvement, good policy, good practice. So, the fundamentals of how you find, develop, promote, utilize talent was all rooted in just really, really solid fundamentals. And then you can take that as a platform and build and dream. So there’s no way that I think that I’d be where I am right now without starting at those, I would call Academy HR places.
Eric Becker
Which is a fantastic background. And I agree, you know, our audience, have CEO founders, we have entrepreneurs, we have families, we have a lot of young people. And I know that for young people, there’s a lot of anxiety starting your career. And I’ve heard you talk about the difference between this concept of like climbing a ladder of a career versus building a portfolio. And so I love that framing. Can you share more about that?
Kim Seymour
Right, and I 100% did not coin that phrase myself, but when I look back over my career, I was like, you know what, that’s exactly what I did. And it didn’t become intentional until later. In the beginning, we didn’t know any other way. It was rung by rung. It was what do you do to get to the next level? But at a certain point, and especially as things evolve, you have to start thinking about what is the story you’re crafting about how you contribute to whatever the particular situation is.
So, I started thinking about it like that. It wasn’t about functional skill sets as much as it was about how do you contribute on a leadership level, you might have to negotiate. You might have to have difficult conversations. I needed to understand business. So, what about my business acumen? I needed to understand M&A. So, how do I go about getting that particular set of skills? So, along the way, I just identify things that I was good at, things I wanted to be better at, and which roles could fill that gap for me. But I think the portfolio mindset, probably not even just for your job, before your life is a smart one.
Eric Becker
I agree. I think of life in a portfolio context and it is a great framework. Another kind of mindset or framework, a lot of young people, we get out of school and we think, okay, that was the learning, that was the learning, that was school. But you’ve talked about always being in learning mode. And I’m curious, do you even now today with all the success that you’ve had, consider yourself still a learner?
Kim Seymour
I don’t even know me without that aspect, truthfully. And I do think it contributes to how someone is good at what they do. Things are always going to evolve. Things are always going to change. If you are not a learner, then you’re stuck where you were at a particular point in time, at a particular point in your career. Even if you’re staying in your same function, things are evolving at such a rapid pace around you and there’s no way that it doesn’t impact. You’ve got to stay on top of it. I just think let’s just talk about being a well-rounded individual human being and then you bringing that to work. I shudder to think who I would be.
Eric Becker
Yes.
Kim Seymour
If I wasn’t always, what’s this next thing? I want to know about it. Let me go find somebody, even if they’re 20 years old, who can teach me about X, Y, Z. Because I’m not an expert in everything. And I think that’s the kiss of death as well. When you get to that point where you feel like you know it all and there’s no more to learn. That says something about an individual too. But you’ll never be able to say that about me.
Eric Becker
I love that. And when I’ve talked to our sons about it, it’s always learning and always curious. I think it’s a combination of both, always learning, always curious. And so one of the lessons that I’ve heard that you’ve said that you’ve learned along the way is that leadership isn’t about proving a point and being right. It’s about bringing people along with you in that process. Can you talk a little bit about your philosophy of management and what that means?
Kim Seymour
I mean, there are so many, so many elements that hang from that. Essentially where that even came from was not a leadership corporate lesson. It was from a personal lesson that a friend of mine was having an issue with her boyfriend and all the reasons she was listing out the reasons she was right. And I just sat there and thought, what is the goal here? Is the goal to be right? Or is the goal to come to a consensus or some path forward. So, I remember going into the office and having essentially the same conundrum in a meeting with someone that was so focused on the fact that they were convinced that they were right, lost sight of the enterprise goal. I like, you can be right by yourself. You can be right. But if you’re, and I did not make this up either, but I’m going to butcher it. And I don’t know where it came from. But if you are a leader and you do not have followers, then you’re just taking a walk.
So, what is the goal here? So, I do spend a lot of time with people helping them to laser in on what are we trying to accomplish and what is your part in it and what is everyone else part? And getting people, what law school definitely helped. for me was being able to put myself on the other side of an argument and argue that almost as strongly as I argue my own point of view. But when you’re able to do that, several ah-has go off about, that’s really not that important. Or I can give a little bit of here, or I can see where they see that. Even if I give them this, we’re still on our way down the path of…toward the goal that we’ve both aligned on. But I think it does start with, it has to be self-last. That doesn’t roll off the tongue. I don’t believe necessarily self-less leadership, but I believe in self-last.
Eric Becker
Another interesting thing is I read that at some point you said you had to learn to stop being likable, which is so interesting because again, I think of young people in our audience and you’re trying to win that first job or you’re trying to, if you’re in sales, you’re trying to get the first order or whatever it is. And so there’s this element of, where you’re trying to be likable, but then from a leadership perspective, that can also become a real challenge. And so when was that moment for you where you said oh…
Kim Seymour
That one I had early on, I might not have been able to put a name to it, but it occurred to me early on that as long as I am fair and as long as I am kind, that is so much more important than being a people pleaser and being a bobblehead. And if I have everyone’s best interest in mind, which I do, the path along to improvement or help or development or whatever might not feel great to people which means I might not be necessarily liked all the time. I had to get okay with that and I got okay with that very very early again as long as those other things are in place. I don’t think there are many people there’s always somebody who will say that I am unfair or unkind. And that’s so much more important to me. There’s an element of bringing everyone with you in a way that is from your perspective, which I also try to keep in mind, mine is just one perspective, from my perspective, this is more helpful to them in whatever their goal is for their career or for their business.
Eric Becker
It’s great. And I have all different kinds of friends from the arts to business to all different fields. When it comes to growing a business and leadership, I feel like the very best people are what you described in that they’re both kind, but they have high standards and they’re high performing and they can have difficult conversations or uncomfortable conversations, but do it with their values and still be a kind person. So, those are the best leaders.
Kim Seymour
Yeah, I think people know if they know that you’re coming from a place of integrity, you walk away with your relationship intact. So, I should mention that as well. I put a high value on forming relationships with people. Doesn’t mean we’re all got to be best friends, but I’ve got to know enough about what you care about. What is your ultimate North Star for yourself, for your life, for your business, for your team?
Eric Becker
Yes.
Kim Seymour
That I can have that in mind as I’m filtering information because I know where you’re coming from. I think so often we’re so heads down and things are moving so fast that that part of it is lost a little bit. But I don’t know many things that don’t have a foundation in a strong relationship of some sort. That way, when you have to be on the tougher side or when you have to deliver…
Eric Becker
Yes.
Kim Seymour
…a message that perhaps people were not prepared to hear. I’ve had people still walk away thankful, pleasant, happy, and a relationship all these years later.
Eric Becker
Amazing. I, you know, it’s interesting on relationships. I’ve heard, you know, Warren Buffett talk about the compound, about how compounding is so important. The compounding of investments over time relationships compound too, which is amazing that the longer that you maintain and build a relationship, the stronger that relationship gets over time. So it’s such an important lesson. Let’s talk about culture.
Kim Seymour
100%.
Eric Becker
Developing a strong company culture is so critical. The best businesses all seem to have the best cultures. What is your take on how culture is built? I think that you’ve said something like it’s 0% of what we say and so much about like what we do or who we are.
Kim Seymour
The first time I heard someone talk about that, was Josh Silverman, who was CEO of Etsy. But before that, he was at American Express, which is where we met, and it was like a light bulb went off over my head. And we were talking, as we do, just about leadership in general, people in general, and how so many companies feel like they come up with the bumper sticker. or the T-shirt or the mug or whatever it is, they slap it on there. And then they do something 100% counter to whatever that is. And you have, however many employees you have, they look at the bumper sticker, they see what you do. And those two things are not aligned. It is has nothing to do with what you say. And it is always who you hire. Promote. Terminate and I add it tolerate. That is what your culture is. Because we don’t tolerate anything that is counter to that. We hire on the front end for what we say is important to us. And when you see people rise, fall, it is all in line. And you would look at it say, yep, I see exactly why that happened. That’s all I ask really, I’m a simple person. I would just like everything to line up to what we want to put out into the world for our employees and for our customers.
Eric Becker
Yes. I love that, very authentic. You’ve said that the next decade is gonna be the death of culture fit, which is a term I’ve heard so much over the years and the rise of culture add. What does that mean?
Kim Seymour
Well, I think it’s more a wish, what I hope to be. Culture fit to me implies a sameness. Like you got to fit into this mold. There’s a Kim-sized vacancy and you either fit it or you don’t. And if you don’t, you’re not for us. And if you do, you are. I don’t know that that helps a company evolve. I don’t know that that makes you…
Eric Becker
Okay.
Kim Seymour
…equipped to put out the best product, whatever your product is for your customers. So, I do think that you want someone that’s going to add and figure out what’s missing or what you want more of and look for that. Are they adding a perspective that you don’t know? Are they adding a demographic that you don’t have that then will impact the product that you put out? If you see where I’m going with this. Fit implies…anti-growth mindset, but, add to me says, are we going to be better for you being in the room?
Eric Becker
I love that. And in fact, as a result of that, I’m going to use culture addd now when we talk about culture, because I always think of it as that the best cultures we want to protect, what’s great about them, but they evolve over time. And so we want culture add. I think it’s a wonderful, a wonderful thing.
Kim Seymour
I think we definitely mindset what you say, reflect your mindset and vice versa. So, if we can just switch to that, then I think that some of these other more difficult conversations that people are unwilling to have might get a little bit easier.
Eric Becker
Absolutely. Let’s talk about AI and its increasing impact on how it’s changing business from an HR perspective from an operating perspective. What are you excited about with AI and then what are we not maybe paying enough attention to?
Kim Seymour
Yeah, I have many opinions on both of those. I’m excited. I’m excited first of all, because I again going back to curiosity. This is something that did not exist to the general population a few short years ago. And when you look at the trajectory of those moments along the human existence where that has happened, this is the latest thing. The trepidation, of course, is on the government side. We’ve got to keep our company safe. We’ve got to keep our employees safe. you know, this is the Wild West right now. So, we are at the very beginning of what the cons are about all of this. But the cons shouldn’t be fear, right? I think be curious, have a healthy risk mindset as far as data is concerned and all of that.
Eric Becker
It is.
Kim Seymour
But I am not in that camp of bury my head like this is just gonna blow over. I kind of felt that way about crypto and I may have been right about that. But this one is, it’s not going away.
Eric Becker
No, it’s not.
Kim Seymour
So, you can either get on board the bus or the bus is gonna run you over. I suggest you get your token, to borrow Claude phrase, get your token and get on and figure out how you can use it as a teammate, an employee, to create capacity. And once you create that capacity, then turn your attention to how can you contribute at a higher level in these things that really matter and let this handle the stuff that is routine or rote or administrivia or whatever it is. I think that’s the That’s the going in mindset we have to have. Now, what am I concerned about? This is what I’m observing. People are putting a lot of pressure on this tool to be all things and to deliver ROI miracles at this point. And the data is suggesting that we are not there. So, I would love for people to be a little bit more realistic about the journey we’re on. Play, experiment for sure, but be realistic about it, and be safe with it.
Eric Becker
I agree. And you know, I’ve read that the students that are graduating this year in May and June, both like from high school, going to college, and then very much from college looking for that first job. I’ve heard there’s terrible anxiety out there, and are you optimistic about their future and what advice would you give them?
Kim Seymour
I’m optimistic generally. Here’s what I will say. The ones that I’ve talked to and thinking about AI specifically are feeling like entry level roles are being taken over by automation and all that. We are not to that point yet. There are still jobs out there. Now, the job market itself being impacted macro economically, yes, be concerned about that. But don’t be concerned that they’re not there because of AI. What I will say is you can’t get the job without being AI fluent anymore.
Eric Becker
Yes. Yeah.
Kim Seymour
That is what I will say.
Eric Becker
Embrace it. Embrace it.
Kim Seymour
Figure out, embrace it, embrace it and embrace it in a way where it is the tool that it is not a substitute for your own critical thinking, not a substitute for. Right now, I’m trying to figure out how I feel about the fact that I’m clearly getting a lot of things written by AI. And I will say that’s a bus that I’m not quite on yet. I still write all my own stuff. You know, I might research. I might ask for different scenarios and to bulletproof what I’ve come up with. But I just, I’m worried about losing some basic skill sets. How to write? How to look at things critically and compare them to each other and spot the inconsistencies, which is still a thing with this tool at this point. So, I want them to be optimistic because why not? But I want them to be realistic because why not? Right? The optimistic is there’s a job out there for you. The realistic is, but not if you are not on top of how to add value in the right way. And this is one of the right ways.
Eric Becker
Absolutely, I completely agree. Embrace it and look for where the opportunities are going to be. And there are going to be many, many opportunities. And there’ll be a lot of work that probably a lot of people didn’t love doing anyway that will go away.
Kim Seymour
That’s right. And then double down on what only you uniquely can add. You uniquely can do.
Eric Becker
Exactly. So one time I was with my younger brother and he had a hat on and it said AMQ and I said, what is AMQ? And he said, ask more questions. And I’ve heard you say ask better questions. I love that. How important are questions and asking better questions?
Kim Seymour
That’s right. Look, I think it goes back to mindset in general and curiosity and openness to really learning. But I know about myself. I’m not always going to be and don’t aim to be the smartest person in the room. But I do aim to get us to the best outcome, get us aligned on the path forward. And usually a good way to do that is by the questions that you ask to shine the light in the dark, to sometimes highlight inconsistencies, to sometimes just really get all the good information out on the table so we can make the best decision about the path forward. I find that people come in, you know, kind of loaded for bear with their preconceived idea about whatever the thing is and are not open or curious enough to just start asking questions. And usually that will reveal either something you didn’t know, something you had not considered, another possibility. And all of that comes from questions, but the questions can’t be performative. They can’t be surface.
Eric Becker
Right. Yeah.
Kim Seymour
They’ve really got to be with the right intention, with the right mindset and willing to go there, willing to say the, the unsayable thing, willing to ask the unaskable question. And, and that takes, you know, kind of personal gumption, I guess.
Eric Becker
It does. So, you what I have a saying, which is that sometimes we have to exercise our uncomfortable conversation muscle and you know, you’ve worked with CEOs, you’ve worked with founders, you’ve worked with famous founders. What have you learned about hard conversations and giving feedback and telling leaders things that they need to hear, but maybe it might be a little bit uncomfortable to hear it. What have you learned about tough feedback?
Kim Seymour
I think you can’t just bring it on someone with no relationship, no contract. I’m a big fan, many people that I talk to, mentor, whatever, have heard me say this a million times, of the contracting conversation way up front, way before you’re anywhere near having to have a tough conversation. You should have a conversation about kind of the rules of the road. This is the way I generally approach things. I need to be able to say the thing. Are you ready to hear the thing? Or however they best receive information. So, that’s something else I’ve learned along the way that I wasn’t great at at the beginning. You know, I come in, I don’t know how else to say with full “Kim-ness” and with my approach and my whatever, my directness and not everyone receives information that way. So, you’ve got to care about that.
Eric Becker
Right. Yeah. Yeah
Kim Seymour
And you can only know that and learn that by building a relationship with people. So, once you do that, I promise you that the conversations actually aren’t that tough. They really are not. Then it becomes who you are, who I am as a person is, I think, why not? What’s the worst that can happen? What is the worst that can happen if I say exactly what needs to be said? and they don’t like it. Well, I might get fired. I won’t stay fired. You know what mean? I won’t stay unemployed. So, I’m just not wired that way. And because I really am committed to pushing success of that company, of that person, and usually they know that, it just doesn’t. You know, it doesn’t scare me, no.
Eric Becker
It doesn’t scare you. It It doesn’t scare you. It’s authenticity, just listening to you. It’s authenticity. It’s the relationship. It’s the right thing to do. And you know, you can never go wrong by doing the right thing. So it’s a combination of all those that, you know, make you fearless to go into have those conversations. We have a lot of CEO founders in our audience. And in looking at the amazing career that you’ve had, you’ve worked for both public companies and companies that have been around, know, generationally, and then you’ve worked for these growth businesses. And in some of the growth businesses, they had private equity investors or other, you know, venture capital investors. What’s the, when you have an active investor in a business like private equity, is there anything different that you found around performance, around growth, around building a business when you have these more active private investors?
Kim Seymour
Well, yeah, I mean, practically because their their goal depending on outside depending on their goal, right, if they are very very focused on the exit. Whatever the exit strategy is that sometimes inform the tolerances from a budget standpoint from a P&L standpoint from a profitability standpoint. Which does impact what you can and can’t do and how far you can go? So, to speak and and the time horizon of tolerance of how long do you give someone to kind of course correct or to pivot? They will, yes, they will have an opinion about that as they should because the check that was written was theirs. So, you have to be again, aware and pragmatic about that. And that’s again, why I very much expect HR people to be business people. You’ve got to understand the effect of all the levers on the P&L and you’ve got to be able to put yourself in the place of the stakeholders, whoever those stakeholders are. What do they care about? How do they care about it? What do they see the ultimate goal of this? What’s the time horizon attached to it? That tells you a lot about what you can tolerate on the talent side.
Eric Becker
I think that makes a lot of sense. Know who’s around the table, know what they care about, and then acting accordingly. It makes so much sense. So, one of the last questions that I have for you is, I ran this contest some years ago on the best question you’ve ever asked or been asked, and the winner of that contest, which it became my favorite question, what are you tolerating that you shouldn’t be? And in our conversation, you’ve mentioned a couple of times like what you tolerate is it says something. So, I ask myself every day, what am I tolerating, but shouldn’t be? What’s a favorite question of yours that either you’ve asked or been asked?
Kim Seymour
How can I help? I know that that’s, it’s such a small, almost obvious question. But when I talk to leaders, when I talk to employees, they have these tactical one-on-ones. They have what, you know, I don’t even know what I wouldn’t even call feedback sessions or…
Eric Becker
I love that.
Kim Seymour
…check the box meetings, all of the things. From an employee standpoint, you want someone that’s in your corner, you want someone who has your back, even if they, whether they’re delivering or not, someone who’s going to help you advance the ball or from my perspective, just know what reality is. You just don’t want to be surprised. So, as a leader, if I don’t end that meeting with, how can I help? It seems so simple. Say it, ask it, and mean it.
Eric Becker
Yes.
Kim Seymour
And listen to what they say. And if they are surprised, as some people are, that that question is being asked, they really give you something not real or performative or whatever, ask it again. No, really. How can I help? Particularly if you’ve had a difficult conversation or if you’ve had something that you’ve put in front of them that you want them to upskill or do better or develop or whatever, it’s not all one way and don’t ever assume it is. So, that’s the question.
Eric Becker
Yes, it’s a great question. And it’s actually as part of our earlier conversation about culture, think saying how can I help and authentically saying that is it’s culture add, it’s culture add to say, how can I help says a lot about you as a leader. And, and then it’s really interesting to see what then how someone reacts to that because they may really need help with something and it’ll make them think about that and bring up the next part of the conversation. So, I love that question. Well, Kim, thank you so much for sharing your Friday morning early with us and bringing these insights and perspective, the hard earned lessons from leading people. It’s really an amazing thing, the career that you’ve had and the discussion that we’ve had on that really the challenging parts of work, the challenging parts of life and what we can do to address those and be better and do more. is fantastic, especially in the world that we’re living in. So, I just really appreciate your time today and thank you so much.
Kim Seymour
You’re welcome, Eric.
CLOSE
Eric Becker
Before I let you go, if this episode resonated with you, please share it generously and please click the subscribe button below. Send this to someone in your world who is navigating a pivotal moment right now, someone who is staring down a decision and might need the reminder that recognizing the moment is half the battle. See you next time on “The Long Game.”
Voiceover
“The Long Game,” a podcast by Cresset, is intended for information only and is not investment advice. Any company discussed is not a recommendation to buy, sell or hold any security. Investment involves risk, including loss of principal. Please consult your advisors before making investment decisions.
